For those who haven't seen these interesting interviews:
Rwandan Minister of Defense James Kabaerebe gives an extremely interesting and frank interview to Colette Braeckman.
Rwandan Foreign Minister Louise Mushikiwabo's statement to the UN Security Council.
President Paul Kagame's interview with the Metro in New York.
Thursday, August 30, 2012
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95 comments:
C'est un excellent aperçu de la genèse du chaos au Congo par James Kabarebe. Jason doit arrêter d'appeler salut un expert sur la région. Comment pourrait Jason manquez pas cette information? Il a été feing nous fantasmes sur ce blog!
Yes, I respect Jason as a fair writer. I have often written to Rwandan journalists like Gasasira, telling them that I respect Jason's blog more than his propaganda site. But how did you miss these facts presented by General James Kabarebe?. If we knew these from beginning, our view of the chaos in DRC would be different.
I am now vindicated. All along I have been on the side of Rwanda because, honestly, logic alone shows that Rwanda is not responsible for the chaos. The Congolese government is run like a school dormitory of O-level students, where confusion and chaos reigns!
Thanks Kabarebe for letting us know the whole genesis of the problem. I have always admired Kabarebe but I have never met him.
Jaso, stop relying on "Diplomats I spoke to said this and that...." It is common for a white person to trust a fellow white person but try reaching out to people like Afande James.
I challenge congolese writers such as muna congo, blaise, congoman, etc, to rebut General Kabarebe's insight.
Thanks again Kabarebe....
Those who wrote the report accusing Rwanda of supporting M23 knew the facts were distorted(the primary sources of information were the Military intelligence of DR Congo and Eastern Congo civil society members who are heavily subsidized by Kabila and PPRD), but they went ahead and published it anyway;General Kaberebe put it right, all stakeholders had benefited from the blame game against Rwanda and excused their failures. Now it is time UNSC let someone with more credibility head that investigative group .Steve Hege is an activist, championing a cause he believes in, and it is his right. But he is not at his intended place of duty. UN GoE is supposed to be neutral. Matt Bryden precedence is there.
Jason -
I'd wait to hear the DRC reaction to these interviews and so called 'frank interview'. In the meantime one needs to remember that kabarebe is the person who deployed RDF in Kitona/Bas-Congo more than 2,000 KM from kigali with the intention to attack Kinshasa and denied the facts all the way until he was defeated by a coalition of SADC troops.
Yes we can have everything in the scale in order to assess who is telling the truth in this situation but the reputation of the rwanda's regime in DRC has discredited them a great deal.
My verdict on james' interview was: des tissus de mensonges cousus avec quelques files de verite.
As for kagame, it was interesting to follow the nonexistent parallels he was drawing between rwanda and Israel. As someone said, from the inside, Israel is a functioning democracy something rwanda can never claim to be. Unlike the rwandan genocide where rwandan turned against their fellow rwandans, the Holocaust was not conducted by Jews. In my opinion, it is easier to organise rwanda due to its size but the elephant in the room still the millions of unhappy hutu and the growing number of internal as well as external enemies the kagame regime has been able to create so far.
Affaire a suivre...
Rich
Rich -
Just to add the the delegation of church leaders from DRC is scheduled to meet Ban this Friday in NY. According to a source, churches have unpublished evidence of the implication of the rwandan regime in the current crisis.
Also note that the new spokesperson of M23 stanislas baleke has confirmed that they intend to continue fighting and Masisi may be the next target before coming back on Goma.
LDK once said, "cette guerre sera longue et populaire..."
Rich
I agree with you Gisa,
I really feel angry with UN GoE. But honestly when I read their report authored by Hege and co. I dismissed it outright as shoddy! I wondered why respectable media like BBC, Reuters, etc, Associated Press (which went as far as interviewing anti-Rwanda 'deserter' in the custody of Congolese intelligence) blindly amplified that piece of falsehood.
When I saw their annexes of evidences I laughed! One bullet made in Rwanda, one long-muzzle gun not supplied by FADC, uniform, boots, picture of the house of Makenga, etc...
And then they said Rwanda was given chance to respond and extracted a story from New Times!
These guys are experts! If you were a university student and had to do your thesis on Congo conflict as part of your Political Science or International Law course, you would get a zero!
In law, how do you only consider evidences from one side? What the donors did was like a judge who hears the prosecution side and then imposes a sentence outright without considering the evidence of the defence.
What about the doctrine of benefit of doubt in serious proceedings? What about credibility of witnesses? How on earth Hege and co. could say "We interviewed Congolese intelligence, Congolese military, FDLR defectors, defectors in the hands of FADC, civil societies in Congo..." Are these sources neutral?
General James Kabarebe at least opened the lid. How that guy forged ID of that Sadam officer, etc.
Who are they accountable to these experts. But I must say that Jason is also accomplice in this. He is an expert yet, his writings are defending Hege.
Anyway, the truth is now coming out.
@Rich
" According to a source, churches have unpublished evidence of the implication of the rwandan regime in the current crisis. " This reminds me of the hoax about the accurate unpublished results of the presidential elections held by the CENCO.
Such kind of actions are comforting what every one,friends and foes of Congo, are saying behind closed door. DR Congo is acting in indescribable chaos and risk failing as a functioning, governable state.The military front was left to be managed by militia leaders such as Janvier Karairi, and now the diplomacy is officially handed over to the coalition of religions.
Gisa Rebero -
You are entitled to your opinions even if, like in this instance, they fail to make much sense.
Look, churches, civil society, GoE, Human Right organisations, Media outlet etc... can all constitute reliable source of information and especially when their evidence corroborate.
Remember, in 1998, Kinois defended the capital from the RDF et al. attempt to take the capital. When geat Congolese defend the nation or make the nation proud (like when the national football team won the African Cup of Nation), I guess you could also say the DRC diplomacy was "handed over" to the football team!
In case, you didn't know, I'm talking for Congolese and not the government; so anything contributing to advance their case (Congolese) is positive to me.
Rich
@Rich, August 31, 2012 2:49 AM
You write:
“Unlike the rwandan genocide where rwandan turned against their fellow rwandans, the Holocaust was not conducted by Jews.”
The European Jews killed during the second world war were not a nation. They were just a religious group.
It were fellow Germans who killed German Jews, It were anti-Semitic Polish, Lithuanians, and Russians (so-called Kapos in the annihilation camps) who helped to do the killing of East European Jews, people who mostly spoke a language they call Deitsch (Deitsch meaning Deutsch/German), but they were fellow Polish and Russian victims. It were French who delivered French Jews to the German killing machine, so did Hungarian, Romanian, and Dutch and Danish, and Belgian anti-Semites.
The murder of the European Jews was a joint project of many European people, who wanted to get rid of members of their communities, led by Germans.
The analogy to Rwanda is not that wrong. It was Rwandans who killed Rwandans. Most perpetrators of the Holocaust were German or German speaking, as were their victims.
Anon AUGUST 31, 2012 7:13 AM -
I'm not a Holocaust scholar but I know there are two school of thoughts when it comes to saying whether or not the general public both in nazi Germany or in nazi-occupied territories across Europe were aware of the extermination project, let alone participating in it. What is clear is that the racism or antisemitism was the main tenet of society in nazi germany.
Looking at the rwandan case, one can argue that although there were underlaying hatred between hutus and tutsis during the Habyarimana regime, what triggered the genocide was the growing perception among hutu extremists that the Arusha agreement was going to be implemented followed by the assassination of Habyarimana.
So, as we can see, the case of nazi Germany is in my opinion very different to the situation of rwanda. In the same way, I still think that most of those killed during the Holocaust were not necessarily Germans yet in the case of rwanda those people killed were mainly rwandans. So, in other words, the rwandan genocide is a rwandan affair whereas the Shoah was imposed upon other European countries following the victory of nazis.
I was expecting to find out more about the parallel between democracy in Israel and rwanda or indeed the intent to harm Israel compared to potential threat to the existence of the rwandan nation in the region. Perhaps we can say what left of the FDLR is as powerful as Iran or that Tanzania is Egypt and Burundi is Palestine etc...!
The analogy to rwanda as presented by kagame is everything but accurate.
Rich
Hi Rich, I won't go deeper into this because this blog is perhaps the wrong place. However, the coming to terms with the past as regards the Holocaust has only really started in many European countries (East and West), which is a painful process to some of them, especially very recently Denmark. Only so much I would add, the interpretation of the First and Second World Wars as one entity of a "European Civil" war is gaining credibility. There are even similarities to the chain of wars in the Great Lakes region. Best.
Davenport et Stam, sont deux scientifiques de l’université de Michigan, qui ont étudié les évènements et les massacres qui ont eu lieu entre le 7 avril et le 9 juillet 1994. Ils concluent que
1) la grande majorité des massacres a eu lieu dans les zones sous contrôle des troupes gouvernementales de l’ancien régime. Ils estiment le nombre des victimes autour de 990.000. Il est donc clair qu’il y a eu génocide et que la responsabilité directe de ce génocide se trouve chez les responsables de l’ancien régime en charge de l’armée et des milices génocidaires à ce moment.
2) ils constatent que dans des zones sous contrôle du FPR il y a eu environs 80.000 personnes tués. Ils classent ces assassinats dans la catégorie de crimes de guerre et ils trouvent inacceptables que les responsables de ces massacres ne sont nullement poursuivis.
3) Davenport et Stam tirent aussi la conclusion que le but du FPR lors du génocide, ce n’était pas d’arrêter le génocide, ni de protéger les tutsis et les hutus démocratiques menacés. Mais qu’il s’agissait d’exécuter une stratégie militaire de conquérir le Rwanda. Ainsi Stam cite les témoignages de plusieurs officiers de l’APR qui avaient donné priorité à des actions de sauvetage de victimes du génocide, qui ont été puni à cause du fait qu’ils ne s’étaient pas tenus au plan militaire comme prévu. Ils tirent cette conclusion aussi en comparant les mouvements militaires du FPR avec les massacres qui ont eu lieu jour par jour.
4) Selon leur reconstruction, les deux scientifiques ont constaté que les massacres augmentaient suivant le progrès que le FPR faisait ou suivant les massacres qui se faisaient dans les zones sous contrôle du FPR. C’est donc comme si, lors d’une prise d’otages, les criminels exécutent leurs menaces de tuer leurs otages, mais que la police continue d’agir sans tenir aucunement compte avec cette menace. Résultat : les otages continuent d’être tués les uns après les autres. Dans une telle situation on pourrait parler de coresponsabilité dans les meurtres et d’une attitude inhumaine et criminelle de la part de la police.
En ce qui conerne le FPR, on peut dire que:
- Dirigé depuis plus que 22 ans par un même chef qui a un pouvoir totale dans l’organisation,
- fonctionnant selon une logique militariste de conquête et d’occupation de territoire et des richesses plutôt que selon une logique de libération et de servir le peuple
- admirant le militarisme et le libéralisme économique appliqués aux Etats-Unis
- empreignes d’une approche ethniciste de tout conflit,
Le FPR et Kagame ont complètement échoué à créer un sentiment d’unité nationale réel dans la population rwandaise. Les hutus en tant que groupe ethnique sont traités de coupables du génocide des tutsies en tant que groupe ethnique, ce qui ne correspond pas à l réaité de ce qui s’est passé en 1994.
Tous ces éléments font du FPR un instrument idéal pour la stratégie étasunienne en Afrique, une stratégie qui a comme objectif
1) de mater toute mouvance de gauche pour un développement réellement indépendant et une démocratie populaire ;
2) de semer la division parmi les populations africaines ;
3) de faire échouer des alliances panafricaines et sud-sud qui visent de transformer le continent africain en un continent émergent qui rejoint le mouvement des fameux BRICS et
4) de calmer les ambitions des rivaux européens nostalgiques aux temps coloniaux en les poussant dans le rôle de sous-traitant.
Kagame’s and Mushikiwabo’s interviews are the same old hot air, full of gratuitous axiomatic statements and denials. All they say is “It is not us”, period. How do you engade such fellows.
Coming to this farfetched effort to compare Rwanda to Israel, the ridicule is not so much about the “genocide”, but really about somehow shared “contested right to exist”. It is known that Israel is a creation (1947) necessitated by a particular history. Since then, Israel feels under siege and threatened as their very existence is contested by some of its neighbors. But Rwanda’s existence is not contested by anyone, who cares! On the contrary, it is the extremist Kagamist lot (even on this forum) who want to contest the existence of Congo, want to question Berlin’s borders with some bizarre stories of fanciful kings and kingdoms.
“Il y a a boire et a manger” in Kaberebe’s interview. Unlike Kagame and Mushikiwabo, he at least has the merit of not just denying, but he does try to justify the denials. However, after objective scrutiny, the arguments he uses are so weak or even childish. Just 4 short points:
(1)For example he pretends that people have not seen Rwandan troops crossing into Congo. Hello! What is “covert or clandestine mission” in Kinyarwanda again? Look, many corroborating witnesses on the Congo side of the border indicate the crossing of Rwandan and Ugandan troops to this day.
(2)He waffles on the “fact” that PARECO or M23 are always roundly defeated and disarmed when they are deep inside Congo (like in Masisi, South Kivu or indeed Kinshasa), but they miraculously regain fire power once they reach the border with Rwanda(Runyoni…)
(3)About Mr. Hege. Let me say that it is rare and brave fellows like Mr. Hege who make us all still believe in the goodness of human kind. I mean, given the powerful prevailing pro-Kagame and anti-Congo propaganda spearheaded by the int’l banking and mining mafia through media (CNN, Reuters, allafrica.com) in the last 15 years, the GoE team heroically stood for the “TRUTH”. Please someone remind me, has Mr. Hege compiled all these other countless reports that show that M23 is a Kagame’s militia? Or is it a collective hallucination by the whole world jealous of the virtual paradise that Rwanda has become under god Kagame?
(4)But the real frankness of Kaberebe is the disqualification of any reason to wage a war by M23. He clearly shows that the genesis of this senseless violence are the twin decisions to bring Ntaganda to justice and that of building a “armee republicaine” by allowing Congolese Tutsis to be integrated in the Congolese family and be redeployed in other provinces.
To conclude, the IC especially the UN SC Sanctions Committee now knows whom they are dealing with, pitiable parasites yet unrepentantly arrogant fellows who have come to overestimate themselves. So Kagame is more powerful than Saddam Hussain, Mubark or even Gadafi? Bring on more constraining economic sanctions, they say.
@muana congo ,
Rwanda can't exist as a nation without the people of Rwanda. From wikipedia definition: " A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history. In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up ".
Those you refer to as "pitiable parasites yet unrepentantly arrogant fellows" are part of the Nation of Rwanda. This Nation stretches beyond the geographic borders of country Rwanda. In many comments on congo siasa you refer to them as PR machines, cancer, tumor, parasites etc. Deep down in your subconscious you believe they are exactly that. The real existential threat Rwanda as a Nation is facing is that if you get the means you will use " chemotherapy"(an other word used somewhere on this blog) to get rid of it.
Finally, President Kagame was answering a question asked by the interviewer; he never intended to draw any parallel.
Dear ,you horribly misread me. I am a young African, I don’t care (maybe naively) whether one is Tutsi, Hutu or any Congolese tribe. In all my posts,I always refer to Kagame as a regime(yes deadly tumor for Africa like Mobutu or Mubarak) but never Tutsis as a people. From my father Luba side in Congo, I personally know what victimization looks like.
By the way, Congo has many cross-border tribes. In fact, Zambia has more people of Congolese heritage (Luba-Lunda) than any other bordering country to Congo(http://www.lusakatimes.com/2012/08/31/toxic-origins-zambians-congolese-heritage-publicly-admit-roots-part2/).But no trouble there.
So you and me lets fight against people like Kagame who are holding Africa back.
@ Gisa Rebero
Sorry friend, typos again, The above is a response to your reply and whoever will think alike.
Tony above who writes in French
Your comments are just cliche and irrelevant. It is like revisiting how the whites killed red indians in Americas. How America oppressed blacks over successive years. Read "Stupid White Men" by Michael Moore. His writings are largely ignored, but may be they are true.
American scientists coming to investigate the roles of RPA in killings or how the country is run, the place of Hutus, blablabla. Who did they interview? What scientific methods did they use? These are racists who come, set foot on Rwanda, go back, review literature on the web authored by the likes of Hege and then write from 'expert point of view'.
You say Kagame has failed to create a functioning state: Give us a political science theory that is universally followed in running states and see how Kagame contradicts it?
White people, give Rwanda a break! Go review how Angola is run, how Sierre Leone is run, how USA is run by reading 'Stupid White Men'
@ Muna Congo:
You are entitled to challenge anything that sheds a positive light on Rwanda. Because perhaps you are a Congolese and you are in belligerent mood. Fine, but some facts are irrefutable!
Gen. Kabarebe interview is total truth. because:
1. He presents a series of transactions leading to the mutiny in a coherent, logical way to leave no room for doubt. Kabila sending his 'colonels and 'generals' to negotiate transfer of Rwandaphone soldiers, meetings in Goma, Kishasa and Rubavu, which Jason reported on but we did not know what was being discussed and disappearance of Ntaganda. This evidence meets admissibility standards in the eyes of a netral, serious thinker.
2. Faking of evidence by Hege & co. He presents hard evidence on this through exposing forgery of Capt. Sadat ID card. This is important to clearly explain the GoE motive. This ID was the only material exhibit in the hands of GoE. That it is been exposed as a fake, the group is left with hearsay evidence. Testimonies from defectors, testimonies from Conogo intelligence, testimonies from border people, testimonies from FDLR, etc, etc. All inadmissible, i am afraid.
3. Gen. Kabarebe clearly shows Rwanda's goodwill in helping Congo sustain its peace. This is a mitigating factor which had to be considered by GoE had their mission been to seek the truth. The general tells us of how they tried to mediate, how they advised the self-promoted thugs in the FADC against igniting the war, how they were frustrated by actions and omissions of Kabila 'generals' and in the end how they washed their hands over the matter.
4. Gen. Kabarebe in military terms dispels the rumuour that M23 could only defeat FARDC with support of Rwanda. He takes us through strategy of fighting, morale of troops and weaknesses and strengths of FARDC and M23. He says FARDC cannot even kill a rat. Kabarebe is an authority in this field. He is a general, he has fought wars and he has commanded both FARDC and RDF. He explains the conditions on the ground that will convince any objective person to believe that FARDC is nonsense, that's why they cannot even defeat drunken Raia Mtomboki hooligans and FDLR jigger-infested thugs.
5. Gen. Kabarebe also explains how it is impossible to conceal evidences about troop movements in Rwanda since the country is farmed all over and inhibited every inch.
Finally, Gen. Kabarebe exposes how GoE are too amateur and inexperienced to make an objective assessment of teh situation in the region.
Gen. kabarebe's statement is a complete reflection of the background to the current situation and only those high on anti-Rwanda propaganda dose will refute it.
JS
@ James
On general Kabarere
Q/1 : “En 2009 déjà, nous avions tenté de résoudre le problème du CNDP (Conseil national pour la défense du peuple), ce qui avait débouché sur l’arrestation du général Laurent Nkunda I had my reservations concerning those 2009 accord:
- The rebel group is not defeated, his leader is arrested, another one is imposed, and some of their officers are assassinated by this new leader. Did we seriously think that this integration will work? Rdf should have known better in regard of their own integration after Arusha.
- How about the arsenal tender to the Fac? Even less than the number of fighter (Check Rwanda rebuttal.)
- Maybe you know of a country who successfully integrate rebels forces and put them in major positions.
“et la mise à l’écart de beaucoup d’autres groupes, le Pareco, les Mai Mai Kifwawa, le groupe de Nakabaka, le FRC… Tous avaient fini par être intégrés au sein des troupes gouvernementales”
Is the general confessing here that the GoR had some influence on those groups? Or is he admitting the correlation between the rise of a mono ethnic militia and the creation of rival groups?
Q/2
jusqu’au lendemain des élections au Congo et jusqu’au mois d’avril 2012, il n’y a pas eu de problem :
that’s not the opinion of those who have to run for their life for the past 3 years due to all those ops(kimia,Umoja,Amani)
I agree that the failure was not the fault of Rwanda alone; the GoDRC was in a weak position and accept anything. The Cndp asked for things the gov wasn’t even providing to most citizens.
Q/3
I think he is mixing the chain of events here. He is right about those meetings. As a soldier, he should know better that indiscipline in the army is as deadly as a weapon. Maybe He should have stop everybody right there and stick with principle. I don’t see an RDF soldier refusing an order. By not being clear he sent a message to the ex cndp that GoR will look the other way.
I agree that the GoDRC went ahea anyway but Etumba came after cascading defections, militarization was the result not the trigger.
“le président Kabila est venu à Goma, où il a annoncé qu’à tout prix il fallait arrêter Bosco Ntaganda, à tout prix”
That’s not true.The prez was evasive on the matter. He was hypothetical.
Q/4
Makenga case needs more investigation. From what it was reported, contrary to the GoE, he was given 40,000 dollars by Jk, he change course between Goma and Bukavu.
The disarmament and rearming are weird. Doesn’t make sense to me.
Q/5
His rendering is a little simplistic here. The events unfolded slightly differently.
Here he just confirm what I said, Makenga’s feeling regarding the Nkunda arrest.
Q/6
He raise an interesting question here with details about the distance between the masisi and Runyonyi.(7 h on road). What happened?
Q/7 & 8
Here he began to be propagandist. Painting the movement as a national up roar. And I disagree,those forces were on the run.
I agree that the condition of the Fardc are erroneous.
Q/9
Interesting point about the 11 hours walk between Runyonyi and Rwanda. But :
1/the M23 hole up there for weeks
2/the forest give a good cover for infiltration.
His conspiracy theories here are a little bit farfetched. No country ever been punish for not cooperating with the ICC. Even western countries are reluctant to send their national.
Q/10
Basically, everybody are lying. So the GoDRC who is not able to defeat 200 soldiers, all the sudden concoct a machiavelic plan to implicate Rwanda? Seriously?
@ James
Q/11,12 and 13
It will have been simple to link those Rwandan to their place of origin.Even without their ID,the GoR could have confirm or infirm those allegations.
Q/14
If ppl come to my house with 2 diff messages, I will send them back and talk to the handler. Another propaganda:when anything is going wrong in Congo, we point to Rwanda.Only when involve CNDP.
Q/15
Basically, those embassies don’t have a clue even when they have their own sources on the ground. (Check wikileaks on Rwanda to see how they work)
Q/16
Giving flesh to rumors of rogue soldiers in the military is really dangerous.He can only deny and deflect.
Q/18
About mafia, not accurate: refer to rdf officers put aside and those traffickers arrested recently.There is no such thing as 100% control
Q/20
He doesn’t believe on the neutral force like the minaffet and the president.
Like they said,il y avait a boire et a manger.
Blaise,
thanks for an insight that JK gave Makenga $40,000 to go and fight, extremely bizarre! So, you can see how the FARDC is run. May be Etumba decided to pour troops and weapons into Goma after he was given $500,000 in cash, and he did it quickly to show that the money was spent and he wouldnt return it. This confirms Kabarebe's view of FARDC.
About Wikileaks: The cables show that these embassies rely on uncorroborated statements. They never gather intelligence, they gather perceptions from some select individuals. That's why they would say: "So, and so, believes that president so and so is doing this for this reason..." They get these tips from casual conversations, period.
About neutralizing of CNDP and other related militia groups like Maimai Kifuafua, you remember when RDF entered Congo, they dismantled CNDP and started pursuing FDLR. Their pursuance of FDLR was indiscriminate, targeting other negative forces. I remember hearing PARECO leader on BBC Great Lakes Service pleading with RDF not to attack his group. He said "We are here, we will let them pass, follow FDLR, we have no problem with them, we will cooperate and will do what they will ask us to do, as longer as they dont attack us." The guy was gripped with fear when saying those words. So, Umoja Wetu operation inflicted fear on all groups and some started disarming.
About those who were disarmed and re-armed, anything is possible in Congo, where you deal with 'col.' Delphin Kahimbi, and the like.
@ James,
when UN-experts write a report that is accusing Kagame, you say they are négationists and FDLR-lovers. When a group of scientists try to reconstruct the exact events in 1994 and it doesn't play in the ideologic interpretation of FPR on genocide, they are white racists and so on.
This is a very stupid and demagogic way to debate on a very important issue. It was Nkrumah who wrote in The Conakry Years : “I am an internationalist and colour blind”.
The debate on what realy happened in 1994 and what was exactely the role of FPR and those who Kagame labels as genocidairs, is a very important debate, because it is still being used to justify for example the agression war against Congo snce 1998.
There is not one study on the events between april and june 1994 that has the scientific quality of the study by Davenport and Stam.
It is certainely not because the Kagame-government have asked they leave the country, that their study is blabla.
Every one can judge : http://www.scribd.com/doc/58860048/Davenport-and-Stam
and you willl find a conference with a very clear explanation by how they collected the figures: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McD-RP7-2h4
Tony,
it puzzles me how much interest you whites are having in Rwanda. I am not a racist but it has to be said. Your role can sometimes be destructive, think of what CIA did in Congo at independence and the country is still suffering from post-CIA destruction stress.
Rwanda has never used genocide as pretext to achieve anything. In 1996 and 1998 it invaded Zaire because genocidaires were waging cross-border attacks! Self-Defence is provided for in the UN Charter. To respect the memories of the dead, why debate genocide? That's why I say Whites should leave Rwanda alone. Is there any person in the West who debates the Jewish holocaust? Why cant scientists develop theories after theories on whether the Jews were exterminated or not? Standards have to be general.
And this talk of aggression, it is exactly being created by you guys in the West, pitting Africans against one another! Peace was created in 2009 between Rwanda and DR Congo, but some guys were not happy, they have been looking at any opportunity to reverse this! Look at the latest mutiny, it is a purely Congolese affair that stems from their mismanagement of their own system, yet the blame is put on Rwanda! I believe you are educated, did you bother to go through the whole report? What can you say about the sources interviewed? What about the exhibits photographed? What about one-sided-ness of the whole thing? Yet, basing on it you are here talking about aggression, media recycling it, quoting one another, creating a bang of publicity campaign, then NGOs debate it over and over, and then aid cuts. This whole thing is damaging!
So, be fair, on this internet there is a tons of anti-Rwanda rhetoric, and I know after genocidaires were defeated, they went there and their work is to generate misinformation that they feed into NGOs, rights groups, etc.
And again, Rwanda is not a country of angels, it should be judged in the context of Africa. Go and scrutinise human right record of countries such as Angola, Chad, Nigeria, Gambia, the list is long.
@ Tony
"if the president does it, it can't be illegal," Richard Nikson.
If the West does it, it can't be illegal:
Those university students who reconstructed genocide in Rwanda should concern themselves with:
1. Bombing Afghanistan to stone-age
2. Bombing Iraq against UN resolutions (Abu Ghreb, etc)
3. Bombing Libya to bring democracy there and leave it in pieces
4. Turning African forces into West's policemen in Somalia.
5. Exploiting African natural resources, etc, the list is wrong.
The West is worst violator of human rights in this century and in the past century, and the third world has been on receiving end. But the leading media, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, leading reserachers, etc, are all westerners.
It is frustrating, everyday somewhere a white exprt is authoring a report on Rwanda, all false, false!
@ James Serudonyori
Just leave them to carry on with their hate campaign against Rwanda, they have powers and means to bully Rwanda, but Rwanda has Imana, God sees everything!
@ James Serudonyori and team members
Sorry I had to invite myself on this. Kagame’s Rwanda is part of the problem in DRC’s Kivus(FDLR, RCD-CNDP-M23-M24..). So it has to be part of the solution. Congolese are the harshest critics of some incompetence, amateurisms and turpitudes of the DRC administration. Just blaming whites and westerns is not enough. We Africans have to realize that useless wars, coups and gratuitous violence are futile, savage, and are setting us back.
Economics is the future. Kagame prevents stability and prosperity in the African Gtreat Lakes region, yet he is the first to go around the world with a begging bowl for foreign aid.
Even if RCD-CNDP-M23 guys had grievances, do other Congolese have the same grievances? Do you think so many millions (including Congolese Tutsis) have to be killed and displaced in the last 15 years?
Let me tell you a secret: Kagame’s extremist regime is annihilating the Rwanda-Tutsi-genocide-victim-good-will around the world, Jews never did that! Beggars have no choices. Propaganda is one thing, economic reality is quite another!
Tony -
Many thanks for the links. Your return on Siasa was long overdue.
I once went through Marijke Verpoorten's (2005): "The Death Toll of the Rwandan Genocide: A Detailed Analysis for Gikongoro Province" a soft copy can be found here: http://www.cairn.info/revue-population-english-2005-4-page-331.htm
I was looking at the demographic assessment made to estimate the excess mortality caused by the 1994 genocide. I must admit that the demographic analysis was mostly sound however, the study is very silent on the CONTEXT which renders all hutus guilty of all the evils that went on in that country during that period. With the link you have given here, I can piece together an interesting critical review of the study (for my own interest).
Thanks,
Rich
@ James
Who was the biggest supporter in Africa of the agression wars of USA against Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and so on? Do you want a reading of citations of your great leader, the president who never did something illegal?
Kabarebe can speak as a militarist who does not care about people, because he is a professional warrior. So i will say this: I am against sanctions who hit simple people in Rwanda. I am for sanction who hit the Rwandan army. That all bilateral military cooperation with the Rwandan army would be halted. That Africom and the Brittish army halt immediately their collaboration with rwandan army, that a real severe weapons embargo against the rwandan army would be installed. Then we will see arrogant Kabarebe cry as a baby, because he will be hit where he is realy vulnerable.
@Rich
there is another very important conclusion of Stam and Davenport (sorry I copy from french, do not translate because i know all of you understand french):
La haine ethnique génocidaire a conduit vers le chaos et une violence aveugle en 1994. Davenport et Stam, concluent qu’il y avait une énorme mouvement au sein de la population, les gens se déplaçaient et cela rendait la situation très instable. « C’était moins souvent le cas que le gouvernement se tournait contre des citoyen identifiés ou que des voisins se tournaient contre leur voisins, que c’était le cas que le gouvernement se tournait contre des citoyen non-identifiés et que des étrangers se tournaient contre des étrangers. » En comparant les données démographiques de 1991 avec les données de la violence pendant le génocide, Davenport et Stam concluent que les hutus faisaient la majorité (entre 60 et 70%) des victimes tombées dans ces mois.
thx Rich for the link to the study of Marijke Verpoorten, seems interesting indeed.
Guys, What you should do is just feel pity for Kagame's sycophants. In Criminal Kagame's phony world, he has what is called Intore-similar to Interahamwe. Intore so far has beaten Interahamwe at Killing(see Congo holocaust)innocent people.
Intore are forced to go around the Net and polute it with Kagame's phony thinking.
Why I say you have to pity them, because they are forced and allowances or passports are withdrawn(or killed) if they refuse to carry out criminal Kagame's task.
Of late, they've turned to Murdering Prostitutes in Kigali because they refused to pay Criminal Kagame's development fund tax.
What is very laughable, is that Criminal Kagame even withdraws passports that belong to Children.
Rutshuru/London
Virunga: "Prostitutes were killed because they refused to pay tax" This is a mental case, I cant respond.
Tony: "Rwandan military be sanctioned!" Wishful thinking, jealous and ill-will. Rwandan military stopped genocide when Clinton looked the other way. Rwandan military returned refugees and dismantled criminal networks in Congo when international community was accomplice through feeding criminals, Rwandan military removed Mobutu when Congolese had failed, Rwandan military is the most disciplined and effective in peace keeping missions. Darfur is quite.
Tony, I think sanctions should be placed on those sponsoring Syria unrest, bombing everyone around the globe for nothing.
Otherwise, you are entitled to continue citing all propaganda on the net, providing all the links, reviewing all anti-Rwanda writings, fine...
I can see most of the guys on this net are anti-Rwanda fanatics. they respond to an alternative voice by labeling them Kagame sycophants, apologists, bla bla. I can as well label you genocidaires apologists and interahamwe attack dogs.
Genocide denial also called revisionism is the final phase, perpetrators and their sympathizers and protectors of all genocides would undertake ( go find out the history of Tutsis and Marijke Verpoorten's Catholic University of Leuven- Belgium founded by the Catholic missionaries). George Monbiot talked of the " malign intellectual subculture that seeks to excuse savagery by denying the facts. The facts are the genocides in Bosnia and Rwanda."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/13/left-and-libertarian-right
In 1995,Elie Wiesel has called it a "double killing." He went on to declare "Denial murders the dignity of the survivors and seeks to destroy remembrance of the crime. In a century plagued by genocide, we affirm the moral necessity of remembering."
There are hundreds of studies on Tutsi genocide carried out by respectable researchers for the past 18 years. A detailed list with names, place of residence,date of birth and death, of Tutsi murdered during the 1994 genocide exists. Demographic or statical studies are prone to manipulation by playing with assumptions and data.
There are three or four studies by revisionists with a scholarly brush.And those are the best of the best for Tony Busselen, a Belgian colonists in Congo; I bet he comes from the Catholic University of Louvain or is related to catholic missionaries there.
Despite the overwhelming breadth and depth of evidence documenting past genocides, recent events demonstrate that groups, individuals and nations will continue in their efforts to convince others that these atrocities were not genocidal in nature. The are 12 known denial line of defense;coming next.
@James
Are military sanctions wishfull thinking? Then you agree that the Rwandan army is an instrument of US-policy in Africa? So why then all your blabla against Clinton, the big friend of your great leader Kagame?
This shows that you are not a honnest debater but a warrior who uses lies and contradictions, not to seek truth and unity, but to provoke and divide. That is also the way of Kabarebe and Kagame in their interviews.
Probabely Stam and Davenport were "racists" also because they dare to state that genocide was not stopped at all by Rwandan military but because it was accomplished and done. And after the genocide was done, the "heroïc" Rwandan military went forward to occupy the terrain that was left behind in chaos by the genocidairs.
Tony, we can debate, debate and debate. It seems that you are gullible, you have swallowed dangerous anti-Rwanda propaganda. By the way, have you ever set foot in Rwanda, because sitting somewhere in the West and review literature spewed into the web by Filip Reyjents, Peter Reylander and others Gisa mentioned there, is unfair.
There is no contradiction in what I said.
1. I said sanctions is your wishful thinking because it cannot happen, reasons are not there.
2. I mention Clinton in the context of how his administration behaved during genocide. He went to Rwanda and apologised for it in 1998.
3. I have skimmed over Stam and Davenport work. It is full of footnotes and massive references. As usual, recycling all the propaganda and call it expert research.
That RPA and later RDF did not stop genocide but it was accomplished and done. This shows how gullible you are.
Let me tell you. RPA was a rebel force, 20,000 strong armed with light weapons and poorly trained. It was confronting 50,000 strong FAR, backed by 200,000 trained Interahamwe and 7-million Hutu population that had been incited by Radio RTLM to 'go to work'.
RPA moved for three months, through enemy lines, confronting a French-trained and armed FAR, Interahamwe and the population that was implementing genocide on orders of the government. Despite this mammoth task, people were saved. Remember Rusesabagina (he is a hutu and enemy of Kagame) wrote how RPA came and rescued people who were about to be exerminated in Kigali, Immaculate Iribagiza who lives in New York, testified how RPA reached Gikongoro and rescued them on the eve of Interahamwe attack, etc. Examples are so many...
There is no need of debating genocide here, and I know you are doing it and those 'researchers' are doing it because they are racists. Beign a racist means you dont care about other people. Otherwise, if you were not racists you would also debate the holocaust. But rules are violated when a thing concerns Africans.
@James,
Tony hasn't " swallowed dangerous anti-Rwanda propaganda ". He is breastfeeding anti-Tutsi propaganda to the Congolese. Find out his relationship with the far left in Belgium and you will understand better his position on Congo.
Genocide denial line of defense:
1. Question and minimize the statistics:
This is one of the biggest distractions to the main issue itself. By claiming that the numbers are exaggerated or inflated, and that only a few thousand were killed, not over a million, they try to completely side-track the entire issue. As if a few thousand would not have been genocide as well.
2. Attack the motivations of the truth-tellers:
The claim that Tutsis cannot be trusted is like saying no victim should ever be heard, because they are biased in their pursuit of justice.
3. Claim that the victims also killers:
Mention that many Hutus died too at that time - without mentioning that they died on the battlefield; interahamwe militias were civilians from age 13 to 60 and beyond, male and female. Their number surpassed 150 thousands.
Recently DR Congo war victims (whatever cause of their death) are counted as victims of the Tutsis.
4. Emphasize the strangeness of the victims:
The victims were foreign invaders, and the act of killing them is justified as self-defense.
5. Rationalize the deaths as the result of tribal conflict:
The deaths came to the victims out of the inevitability of their history of relationships with hutus.
6. Blame “out of control” forces for committing the killings:
Killings started spontaneously as Hutus were angered by the shooting down of the presidential plane by the Tutsi.
7. Avoid antagonizing national unity and accept perpetrators back into the society:
You can’t try all perpetrators because this will be a judicial vendetta against the hutu community as a whole.
8. Justify denial in favor of current political (democratic) interests:
Tutsi minority is using the collective guilty of the hutus to justify their grip on power. If hutus are to come back on power, there is a need to sideline the genocide question in all political and strategic discussions about Rwanda and the great lakes region.
9. Claim that the victims are receiving good treatment as a result of their victimhood:
Tutsi are using the genocide to receive sympathy from the powerful of the world. Whatever Rwanda achieved in the past 18 years is a result of international goodwill. If Rwanda is doing well is because USA and UK are giving them preferential treatment.
10. Claim that what happened fit the definition of double-genocide.
11. Blame the victims:
The most insulting tactic of all. Saying that actually it was the Tutsi themselves who engineered their own killings, so that they can take over power from hutus.
12. Peace and reconciliation are more important that blaming people for genocide:
There can’t be reconciliation if tutsis continue to honor and remember their dead’s. Genocide memorials should be destroyed and Rwanda should abolish genocide remembrance day.
@Gisa
your 12-points have nothing to do with the things I wrote neither with the links I sended.
There isn't any reference or scientific approach. This is realy propaganda. Everyone can read and judge.
@James,
Read the 8 stages of Genocide by H. Stanton. Originally presented as a briefing paper at the US State Department in 1996.
http://www.learning4u2.com/HAL/Independent%20study%20pages/Anne_Frank/Genocide%20Watch.pdf
You can find many other useful resources here:
http://www.facinghistory.org/resources/facingtoday/27?page=29
It is my stand not to directly engage with revisionists like Tony.
1) Blair, Clinton are Kagame's best friends. And the reason why is that kagame is one of the pillars for the US-atlantic strategy in Africa.
On Libya Kagame was supporting the bombing by NATO and USA : http://www.paulkagame.com/2010/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=305%3Apresident-kagame-reiterates-stand-on-foreign-intervention-in-libya&catid=36%3Anews&Itemid=71&lang=en
Compare this news http://www.newtimes.co.rw/news/index.php?i=15103&a=12703
with for example this : http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/desmond-tutu-says-bush-and-blair-should-face-trial-at-international-criminal-court-over-iraq/2012/09/02/a07903fe-f4e3-11e1-863c-fe85c95ce4ed_story.html
2) Davenport and Stam worked for five years on the ground in Rwanda to collect and put in chart all assassinations. They did it in collaboration with Rwandan offcials and so on. It is only when it became clear that they would conclude points that did'nt fit in Kagame myths on genocide, that they were asked to leave te country. The story of how and in wich conditions their study developped is worth reading here : http://www.psmag.com/politics/what-really-happened-in-rwanda-3432/
Why they could get such an acess to al this information, they ansewer as follows:
<>
<>
The way their research was sobatges when they put to "difficult questions" is exlained an also the spectacular way they were put out of the country:
The first significant negative publicity associated with our project occurred in November 2003 at an academic conference in Kigali. ... There were hundreds of people present, including not just academics but members of the military, the cabinet and other members of the business and political elite. ... Halfway into our presentation, a military man in a green uniform stood up and interrupted. The Minister of Internal Affairs, he announced, took great exception to our findings. We were told that our passport numbers had been documented, that we were expected to leave the country the next day and that we would not be welcomed back into Rwanda — ever. Abruptly, our presentation was over, as was, it seemed, our fieldwork in Rwanda.>>
Sorry, there is a part that dissapeared:
they explain how they could collect all this information on the ground in Rwanda :
"There were a number of reasons that we were given wide-ranging access to groups that had data on the 100 days of killing. First, for their part of the USAID program, our hosts at the National University of Rwanda in Butare arranged many public talks, one of which took place at the U.S. embassy in Kigali. Presumably put together to assist Rwandan NGOs with “state-of-the-art” measurement of human rights violations, these talks — the embassy talk, in particular — turned the situation on its head. The Rwandans at the embassy ended up doing the teaching, bringing up any number of events and publications that dealt with the violence. We met with representatives of several of the institutions involved, whose members discussed with us in greater detail the data they had compiled.
Second, the U.S. ambassador at the time, George McDade Staples, helped us gain access to Rwanda government elites —directly and indirectly through staff members.
Third, the Rwandan assigned to assist the USAID project was extremely helpful in identifying potential sources of information. That she was closely related to a member of the former Tutsi royal family was a welcome plus."
@Gisa
So I am a "revisionist". Why doesn't matter, because before a judge you must give proof. In a discussion, when somebody gives argument you cannot respond, you simply call him a revisionist. That is very practically, but it is also very demagogic.
But please would you explain to the other readers of this forum - not to me - why Stam and Davenport are declared white racists and why H. Stanton is not a white racist in your opinion?
Tony:
A racist means a man who believes, through his actions, that others are inferior and can be treated any how. In Belgium there is a law punishing holocaust deniers, so you, Tony, cannot dare question holocaust. Those 'researchers' cannot dare dig into holocaust. They respect this principle because it concerns whites, but when it comes to genocide in Rwanda, they don't care, because it concerns Africans, Rwandans.
Do you know the doctrine of precedent? That the practice somewhere should apply to similar situation elsewhere.
Revisionist because all the efforts being put into creating new theories about what happened in Rwanda.
And you know these social researches, it is very easy to achieve confirmation statistics. You have your hypothesis, you go out there, get supplied by select interviewees, review false literature then you have your 'findings'.
The web is littered with the kind of literature you are referring to.
After the genocidal forces were defeated, they went out there and started waging information war. But they front western intellectuals...
@James,
It is true there is a law that punishes people in Europe who deny the Holocaust.
But
1) this does not mean that there can no scientific work be done about the Holocaust.
Scientific work can for example state about the Holocaust that besides the 6 million Jews who have been killed by the nazi’s, there were also 26 million citizens form the Soviet union, mostly communists, who were killed in the War. Nobody can say you are revisionist when you state this.
2) This does not mean either that everybody who criticize crimes from the state of Israel today against the Palestinians is an « anti-semite » or a « revisionist ». It is true Israeli politicans try to abuse the Holocaust for their cause. But no judge in Europe can confirm this political misuse and demagogy.
Stam and Davenport do not deny the genocide; they do not defend the genocidical ideology of anti-tutsi hatery. They did solid scientific work from 1998 until 2003 with the help of Rwandan officials and scholars, they had at the beginning every help they wanted. It is only when they came to conclusions that did not fit in Kagames myths, that they were chased away in a spectacular way.
When you read their conclusions I put in French here above, you can not treat them as revisionists.
After reading these discussions I cannot help thinking that there are clearly fashions in academic thought or publications. For some time after the genocide people in the West were so ashamed of their behavior during the mass murder in Rwanda that they gave every benefit of the doubt to the new Rwandan government. And, to be honest, this government performed better than any other African government since the advent of independence. Writing a positive article on Rwanda was fashionable and such a piece easily found its way to be printed – there was demand.
Of course, over time this became a tedious thing to do and scholars needed other tones to get published. With little regard to the matter the facts, a pro Rwandan tendency turned by 180 degrees, and books like the one by Strauss and Waldorf had a real breakthrough. If before it was difficult to publish something critical to Rwanda, now it has become nearly impossible to publish something positive about Rwanda.
Supposedly, before this twist everything positive about the Kagame government must have had flaws because every government makes mistakes. But now everything the government of Rwanda does seem to be wrong. Well, I cannot believe that either. If someone tells me that all information about the problems in the Kivus provided by Kinshasa are right and all information provided by Kigali are wrong, I find that untrustworthy.
After living several years in francophone central Africa I would never believe 100 per cent of what a government or its opposition declares to be the truth.
What strikes me most is why are so many readers of the same information provided by Kinshasa and Kigali so picky? They are not picky in the sense that they try to balance the arguments, they are picky in choosing only the information that suits their predefined world view.
Everything contradicting one’s own world view is propaganda, and every single word dovetailing with it is received as the holy truth. That cannot be right.
I have seen many central African states, living in the region for many years, and traveled the DRC and Rwanda. The only country where I could travel freely, and ask the questions I had to anyone without restrictions was Rwanda.
This may be a dictatorship, but if so it is a dictatorship of the Roman kind, where the Dictator (for example Lucius Cornelius Sulla) was elected by the people in difficult times to overcome bureaucratic delays in implementation.
Actually, Kagame never had the power of Sulla, and one would wish that he follows Sulla’s example to step down without problems at the end of his mandate.
To sum up, is not easy to judge a foreign nation and a difficult situation from afar. People who want to air their opinion, especially if it’s based on a single book, should go and experience the difference between Central African countries themselves…and then post opinions again.
@ Tony Busselen,SEPTEMBER 2, 2012 10:41 AM, if I were you, I would be careful not to use such statements on the Holocaust, as a Belgian citizen, you know more than me that such statements are immoral.
@Blogging Forward. On what my statements are immoral? The fact I say that the State of Israël commits crimes? But this is even written in reports of the European Union. Read this letter from Palestine associations n Gaza to the European Union.http://www.odsg.org/co/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2611:an-open-letter-from-gaza-to-eu-do-not-reward-apartheid&catid=39:Statements&Itemid=62
@Wim Bachman. I was in Rwanda and I was also in Congo. The fact that the State and the Army fonction better in Rwanda then in Congo and that a white man can have the feeling being more comfortable in Rwanda then in Congo, doesn't mean the big majority of the people in Rwanda are free, and it doesn't mean either this proven agression by Rwanda against the Congolese people is justified.
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Tony, aggression? If equivalent of FDLR was threatening Belgium from lawless German would your government sit idle? I think Rwanda has all justifications to interfere in Congo under UN charter, while allows self-defence.
Ugandan writer Andrew Mwenda righly puts it like this:
There is another concept in military science called “strategic depth.” This refers to the distance from a given threat (a front line, a battle ground etc) to the core i.e. the heart and nerve centre of a nation. This could be its capital or its economic or industrial heartland. When the distance is short and an enemy can traverse it in a few hours, the concerned country has to be hypersensitive. In fact, such countries (such as Israel) tend to fight preemptive wars. If they suspect the enemy is going to strike, they move by striking first and fast, enter enemy territory to create “artificial depth”. Hence, any fighting or even retreat takes place on the enemy’s territory.
To make it plain: assume Uganda invaded Congo. Also assume that Congo’s “core” is Lubumbashi and Kinshasa. There are 2,000km of distance from the border at Mpondwe to Kinshasa and about 1900km to Lubumbashi. Even a fast moving army can take five month to reach these two areas because in military campaigns, there is always a necessity to “digest” one’s conquests. If you capture territory, it is critical to pose, consolidate your position, establish supply lines and rest your soldiers before you launch another offensive. This distance would buy Congo time to reorganise, call upon its reserves, mobilize allies, lobby diplomatically and then launch a counteroffensive. Therefore, Congo can afford to trade territory for time. It can afford not to be paranoid.
Not so for Rwanda. Small and densely populated with its ethnic schemes, Rwanda cannot afford a war on its territory. It can take two hours for the enemy to move from any border its core, Kigali. Thus, in both geopolitical (margin of error) and in military (strategic depth) terms, Rwanda has every reason to be hypersensitive about Congo. Hence the question for Rwanda is not (and cannot be) whether to be involved or not in Congo. It has to be involved. That is not a mere tactical or even strategic imperative. It is an existential necessity. The argument cannot even be on the extent or degree of this involvement. Rwanda has to be deeply and intensively involved in Congo. This is the argument Kigali should be making. Instead, Kigali has been frantically denying all involvement in Congolese issues. It is this denial that makes its case unconvincing and suspect as it ignores its vital security concerns.
@Blogging Forward.
Just to say the weekly I work for (www.Solidaire.org ) translated this letter from Palestinians organisations and publicised it in our French and our Dutch site and in our two papers past week. We criticize and denounce the crimes of the State of Israel already for more then three decades and we had never a problem with it. Simply because we are not revisionist and we say nothing "immoral".
@James
Mister Mwenda fabricated a theory that justifies the invasions in DRC since 1998 by Uganda and Rwanda, only with military arguments. This is militaristic thinking. What about the concept of souvereignity? Xhat about the people who must undergo this movments of troops, what about the impossiblity in these conditions of regular invasions to construct a souvereign state that has not only autority on whole the country but also can create development and economic progress and so on.
But also: by saying that "Rwanda has to be deeply involved in Congo", you have the choice : or you declare that Kagame is a liar, or you declare he is not competent.
I thnk that Rwanda and Burundi should make a federation with the RDC, but this will only be possible when the DRC has the strength to lead such a federation. And when Rwanda and Burundi, being little nations, accept the position of the bigger Congo. So it is a dream for the future and nearby solutions will be or a step forward to the future or a step backwards. The agression chasing 250.000 people from their homes, not to speak of all those people who were chased since 1998, and those who died, is clearly a step backwards.
@ http://wimw-Bachmann.blogspot.com and Blogging Forward
It is disgraceful and diabolical for people of your kind to have tried and failed to link Congolese people to the 1994 genocide. This was an entirely inter-Rwandan cyclical favorite pastime; Congo is still suffering from its repercussions in fact. Your pro-Kagame and anti-Congo propaganda has attempted to cloud any objective appreciation of the situation in the Kivus with the indiscriminate exploitation of the “genocide capital”. For the past 15 years, your demonic narrative has been: “A priori and no matter what, Kagame and his junta are immaculate and irreproachable, Congolese are evil and deserve to die.”. For you, because Kagame would have a strong army, he can break any int’l law, break the UN’s embargo and invade and cause mayhem in the Kivus. If so then, why blame Hitler and thestrong Nazi army for invading their neighbors? Or Syria’s involvement in Lebanon, S Hussain in Koweit…?
It is shocking and insulting to all Africans for you to tell them who has been their role model since independence. You cannot choose heroes for Africans, those have always been villains to people of your ilk. Think of Nkrumah, Lumumba, Nyerere or Thomas Sankara. Remember that Nelson Mandela was a “terrorist” and persona no grata in the US during the Apartheid era. Notice that the three musketeers of the so-called “new breed” of African leaders (Museveni, Kagame, Zenawi) who were co-opted by Clinton-Blair, share the same thread of despots who fabricate “convenient wars” for foreign aid. African leaders who embrace both economic and democratic reforms, and importantly work for peace and to end useless wars in Africa, are discarded, like of John Kufuor Ghana, Joachim Chisano of Mozambique or Thabo Mbeki of S. Africa.
By the way, talking about African model countries, have you ever heard of Botswana with peace, no corruption, regular elections, better infrastructures, more importantly an economy that is unencumbered by foreign debt and foreign aid? Your pro-Kagame slogans are doing a disservice to Rwandan people, they are one of the poorest of the poorest, no infrastructure, no real national production, relying solely of foreign aid and looting of blood minerals in the Kivus, nor freedom at all. Rwandans including many prominent Rwandan Tutsis are calling for freedom, reconciliation, peace and prosperity in the region. Yet you can’t stop your empty pro-Kagame slogans. So you like Kagame and hate Rwandan people.
@ James Serudonyori at SEPTEMBER 3, 2012 4:35 AM
I will entertain a “parallel convergence” with you on this one. I agree with you that Kagame junta’s denials” have become untenable. Paradoxically as it may seem, the acknowledgment by Rwanda of its involvement (or reason for it thereof) would be the first step to “solving or managing permanently” this conflict. Then again, it is not the degree but the nature of Rwandan involvement in the Kivus that is contradictory and sadistic. Bemoaning chaos in the Kivus, Rwanda is the first to fuel the same chaos (fomenting of cyclical rebellions of RCD-CNDP-M23, and recycling of FDLR…). Maybe in fine, Kagame junta has determined that the absence of excuses (FDLR) and integration of Congolese Tutsis in the Congolese society (if he can no longer use them as a perpetual bargaining chip in Congo) is a real “existential threat” not to Rwanda but to his despotic regime.
P.S.: What is a “theory” in social disciplines and how do you formulate it? Because in Science, the term has a loaded and venerable meaning. It seems now that any Tom, Dick and Harry has their own theory on the Holocaust of Congolese people in the Kivus. These are just wishy-washy opinions and gut feelings that they call “theory”.
@ muana congo
There would be much to say about your posting but it would be a waste of effort because there is no way that you would respond to ideas other that your own. If you think your personal attacks advance the argument think again.
@ http://wimw-Bachmann.blogspot.com, James and all Kagamist dream team
Sorry Sirs. I am the proudly young generation of “in your face Africans”. You and my generation go to the same universities and are exposed to the same knowledge base. Pitch black African as I am, challenge me with not anecdotes or inconsequential intimidations. But face me with “facts” and “scientific concepts”. Whoever you are, whatever race you are, “conceptually, historically and factually” I will destroy you. Yes I am too confrontational like that, I am sure of what I am talking about because it is the TRUTH of my voiceless Congolese people. As a real African man I will always respond to your challenges, respond to mine.
Please respect congosiasa, bring on science not propaganda! So don’t run away from the points I raise (typical of Kagamist propagandists), dispute them scientifically. Whatever they are, I will dispute yours!
@ Tony debating on the Holocaust is immoral,just don't do it!
@ so, I guess you're pro Hamas and Hezbollah, is it? When you say that the veracity of statements published on your website on the state of Israel are quoted by the European Union, is EU some kind of God in whom there is only truth and no wrongs?
Blogging forward et al ...
For a few days now, you've been unable to refute any of Tony's or indeed muana congo's arguments with facts!
Sad that your discussions seem motivated by emotional urges rather than intellectual ones.
You have not been able to tell us why we should trust what kabarebe is saying now when we all know that he lied about/denied from 1998 to 2003 that rdf presence in DRC.
You have not been able to tell us that, like in rwanda were the 1994 genocide was a rwandan affairs meaning rwandan killing rwandan; the Holocaust was also a Jewish affair! Or that rwanda is a democracy like Israel or indeed rwanda is facing a similar security to that of Israel.
Bottom line is, we've seen far more sophisticated dictatorships than the one headed by kagame et al. yet we all know how they all end.
Rich
Is Kagame some kind of God in whom there is only truth and no wrongs ?
@tony and Rich,thank you a lot for your links, I was not aware of these researchs. They are so different of the official narative of the Rwanda genocide that I had to read them twice and make some other online research.
Anyone should go through these documents and read them. Truth does not have a color. And no lasting peace can be built on lies. Kagame and his tutsi elites friends really deserve the surname of Hitler or great lakes. And in this analogy the Jews are more likely to be the congolese and hutu people than the tutsies. As Hitler before him, Kagame has created a narrative based on disorted facts: the genocide, in this narratives all tutsies are victims, all hutu are blood thirsty killers. Tutsis can mourn their fallen, not hutu. Kids of hutu-tutsis parents killed on genocide can only mourn the tutsi parent and forget the hutu's one.
Any attempt to historically review the facts of history is seen as revisonism and is fought with outward energy. Why ? Because this ideology, it can't even anymore be called history, is the basis of a domination plan.
The stupid theory of the Ugandan journalist, who I am sure should be a tutsi from Uganda, like was Kagame not long ago, is based on this ideology: tutsi are victims and all hutu/congolese are blood thirsty killers. We have to kill them before they kill US... Really ?
This ideology dehumanize hutu and Congolese, make them become dogs whose life are less valuable than tutsi life. Hutu/tutsi life can be disposed as Kagame sees fit, and nobody can question that because it is an "existencial threat" for the tutsi nation, like were the Jew for the german nation. since 1996 how many tutsies died because of hutu/congolese massacre ? How many congolese/hutu died because of direct or indirect actions made by tutsi elites? More than 6 millions....
Did this ideology based on inner racism bring peace in the regions?
@bachman your statement that you felt free to speak in Rwanda is at least curious. Go tell that to the behaded journalist who was criticizing Kagame, if u know Kigali, what do you see when you start reaching the presidency office? Many soldiers at each streeet corner, I will aways remember my taxy driver telling me with fear that we were reaching the "official area" and that I should never come close and speak against Kagame in this country. ...
Regarding Kabarebe interview, it is the same "he said, I said". I trust GoE better for telling me what is true or not. Kabarebe has no credibility whatsoever, not long agon he was also saying that he was congolese. Moreover Kabila is Kabarebe accomplice, their goal is to make Congolese look stupid and incapable to rule their country. Kabila and his regime are not Congo, there are 70 millions of us. Kabila time to pay for all his deeds will come. But that will never ever preclude Kagame and his tutsi elites to pay for their own deeds. One day Kagame will be tried, if he doesn't commit suicide like his model hitler before.
At the end of the day , everyone will have to pay for his own deed. Time of reckoning is near.
@Blogging Forward
No the EU is not some kind of God, but since you refer to european laws, I refer to European autority to explain how you try to use European law in a inappropriate way.
No I am not pro-Hamas or Hezbollah, why should I? I am pro people and people in Gaza are not being treated in a human way by the State of Israel. Just as Congolese in Eastern Congo are not treated in a human way by the militaristic strategists who give interviews in so an arrogant and lying way, that every individual with a sense of dignity should not accept.
And I do not accept your attempts of censorship or intimidation. I visited concentration camps since I was a child and I showed it to my children and I show it to my grandchildren because cruelty that happened there shouldn't be the fate of other people elsewhere in the world, no matter witch religion, nationality or ethnic origin.
@ Tony, can you imagine what would happen if Germans started debating on the holocaust? It is wrong, period!
You as a Citizen of a country that brought in a racist ideology against Tutsi, shouldn't lecture anyone in the African Great Lakes!
When will Belgium officially acknowledge its role in the genocide ideology against Tutsi as Germany did?
As for Congo, they too are complicit in the genocide of Tutsis in Rwanda,Burundi,former Zaire, they were complicit together with the French and Belgian armies in their support of exterminating Tutsis!!!
@ Rich, emotional? Just look at your own writings full of hate, dream on, we will fight you to last Man if you dare try to commit genocide again in Rwanda!!!
Though the subject seems to be a factor somehow influencing the crisis in DR CONGO, some comments here show there is a limited understanding of Tutsi genocide. This ignorance is often exploited by ill-intentioned fellow with the sole purpose of fueling conflicts in the great lakes region; I therefore think it is necessary to avail references for those interested to understand the Genocide committed against the Tutsi.
There are hundreds of scholarly works published on the subject within accepted scientific norms; in addition there is the undeniable proof by DOCUMENTED DATABASE OF VICTIMS, with names, date and places of birth and death, their killers, ID numbers… all types of material evidence you can imagine. This can be corroborated with documents from Rwanda national courts, European and Canadian courts of justice and other international jurisdictions dealing with the matter.
The following link is about what experts have to say regarding Herman and Peterson’s work on Tutsi Genocide:
http://www.monbiot.com/2012/05/21/genocide-denial-expert-assessments/
Blogging forward -
Again, you've missed an opportunity to either demonstrate your ideas through facts or spare readers with your naive frustrations.
Ref # "@ Rich ... dare try to commit genocide again in Rwanda!!!"
This is unbelievable! So, are you saying I am a genocidaire?
In case you did not know, there are more than 400 minority ethnic groups in DRC and this country is an ex-Belgian colony same as rwanda yet Congolese communities have their own problems but never sought to exterminate one another in the way rwandans did in 1994 and that's a FACT.
So, if there is any "hate" going round somewhere, you should find it near you.
You guys urgently need a genuine reconciliation because the elephant in your room is not DRC or Belgium but the millions of unhappy rwandans both inside and outside the country of a thousands ills.
Rich
For those who want to go deep into the subject, let me name few references produced by respectable researchers and international political figures such as:
Jean-Pierre Chretien:
- "Presse libre et propagande raciste au Rwanda: Kangura et les 10 commandements du Hutu,"
- Rwanda: Les medias du genocide (Paris: Karthala, 1995)
Gerard Prunier:
- The Rwanda Crisis: History of a Genocide (New York: Columbia University Press, 1996)
- Rwanda: Un genocide du XXe sidcle (Paris:Karthala, 1995)
Peter Langford:
"The Rwandan Path to Genocide: The Genesis of the Capacity of the Rwandan Post-colonial State to Organize and Unleash a project of Extermination". Civil Wars Vol. 7 n.3
Andre Guichaoua:
Les crises politiques (Villeneuve d'Ascq: Universite des Sciences et Technologies de Lille, 1995)
Gauthier de Villers:
"L'Africaisme belge face aux problemes d'interpretation de la tragedie rwandaise,"
Alison Des Forges
Leave No One to Tell the Story: Genocide in Rwanda. (1999)
Andrew Wallis
Silent Accomplice: The Untold Story of France's Role in the Rwandan Genocide: Nov 2006
Linda Melvern,
- Conspiracy to Murder: The Rwandan Genocide
- A People Betrayed: The Role of the West in Rwanda's Genocide
Colette Braeckman
Rwanda : Histoire d’un génocide (1994)
Fujii, Lee Ann
"The Power of Local Ties: Popular Participation in the Rwandan Genocide". Security Studies Issue 17. 2008
Christian Scherrer
Genocide and crisis in Central Africa: conflict roots, mass violence, and regional war; Praeger, 2002
Alain Destexhe
Rwanda and Genocide in the Twentieth Century
Samantha Power,
Samuel Totten:
A Century of Genocide: Critical Essays and Eyewitness Accounts,
Fred Grünfeld & Anke Huijboom
The Failure to Prevent Genocide in Rwanda: The Role of Bystanders
Larry May
Genocide: A Normative Account - 2010
Howard Adelman&Astri Suhrke
The Path of Genocide: The Rwanda Crisis from Uganda to Zaire 2000
Allan Thompson
The media and the Rwanda genocide 2007
Alexandre Dauge-Roth
Writing and Filming the Genocide of the Tutsis in Rwanda 2010
Shaharyar M. Khan
The shallow graves of Rwanda 2000
Romeo Dallaire:
Shake Hands with The Devil: The Failure of Humanity in Rwanda 2008
Jean-Francois Bayart,Gustave Massiah, Michael N. Barnett,
Jared Cohen
One-hundred Days of Silence: America and the Rwanda Genocide 2007
Mark Levene,
“Connecting Threads: Rwanda, the Holocaust and the Pattern of Contemporary Genocide”, in Roger Smith ed., Genocide: Essays Toward Understanding, Early-Warning and Prevention, Gaithersburg: Association of Genocide Scholars, 1999,
Robert Lyons & Scott Straus
Intimate enemy: images and voices of the Rwandan genocide - 2006
Scott Straus
The Order of Genocide: Race, Power, and War in Rwanda 2008
@Gisa Rebero @Blogging forward,
The number of articles is not a gauge of quality. How many scholars had the access that Herman and Peterson’s had to in situ materials? and how many had it for so many years.
Rich is extremely right, there is an elephant in the room in Rwanda and this elephant is the place of Hutu population within Rwanda society.
Reading Toko Wa I recognize the feeling that I had in Rwanda. My mother is hutu and my father is tutsi. I left Rwanda when I was a Kid and decided to return to understand my roots.
And I was shocked, by the level of unspoken hartred between the hutu and tutsie communities.
There is a class of rulers and the peasants. Hutu have nothing to say in Rwanda, they are always reminded that they were "genocidaire". They cant enter army, they cant raise high in public administration and they dont really participate to the society. They have created their own parallel society and resent is boiling, mostly for young generation who do not recognize in the genocide history and who dont understand why they should be treated as inferior.
Personally coming from both tribe it is very difficult for me to recognize in current Rwanda society. It is a very polarized and brutal society.
Time for true reconciliation and sincere dialogue between tutsies and hutu is long overdue.
Hutu are 80% of the population and Tutsie have also a right to live peacefully. Kagame way forward is not the right one.
@agasoro
I dnt understand why the tutsi regime does not understand this. Rwanda really need a true reconciliation. this forced reconciliation that the regime is forcing on people will not work. Rwanda is indeed a ticking time bomb one slight mistake by Kagame it will expolode.
Another link where Herman who is a tenured professor at Wharton University of Pensilvania, which does not accept anybody within its Academic rank, respond to Monbiot who is a simple journalist..
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/hp020911.html
Every one can make a google search and make its own opinion.
My feeling is that this Rwanda Genocide is the biggest propaganda success in history. With only one side of the story told, TPIR that should shed light on Rwanda genocide that was prevented on investigating against Kagame made massacre, and the silence of international community for these long years about Congo genocide .it was a well planned and delivered plan.
Viewed under this climate people like Jason who wrote the first GoE report that incrimanated Rwanda and all other GoE who followed are to be commended . You have so much more to gain in staying quiet.
@Toko Wa
Frankly, I think Herman and Peterson go to far and deny genocide, the role of the old regime and the role of France is not taken in account in their analysis. They also disagree with Stam and they use their analysis to go further and they critisize Stam & Davidson when they refuse to say that the genocide was prepared and organized by the RPF. This does not diminush that the conclusions from Stam and Davidson I put in French in a comment above, are not complete in contradiction with the Kagame-version that some people in this discussion want us to see als the only and holy truth.
@James Serudonyori, Gisa Rebero and the like
You Rwandans with your Kabarebes, Mishikiwabos can’t prevail for a very simple reason: You’re killing the truth so much that it can’t die!
And your problem is that you don’t realize how pathetic you’ve become, how you’ve squandered the immense capital of international good will which your post-genocide country used to enjoy. And while you’ve obviously fallen victim of your own lies and have started believing in them, you just don’t get that everybody else know the plain truth about Rwanda’s design regarding the Kivus.
Moreover, what puzzles me is that you’re supposed to be very intelligent – since you are from a “superior race” and as Nature has endowed you with the “perfect genes” uncommon to other “inferior” Black Africans….And yet you seem “gullible” enough to swallow up all the nonsensical non-arguments spewed out by Kabarebe!
Yes, Kabarebe has done justice to history by treating us to some of the events, the series of both unofficial and official meetings that were held between Congolese and Rwandan authorities in the run-up to this crisis. But this is hardly news: Congolese already know the complicity and the obscure links existing between the Rwandan president and the one occupying the presidential seat at Kinshasa’s Nation Palace, how the latter cannot take crucial security decisions without the “blessing” of the former…
But this does not absolve Rwanda’s consistent meddling in the conflict in the Kivus. To borrow a brilliant image from my brother Rich, you can’t justify rape because the victim is a prostitute….
Claiming, as Kabarebe did, that since Rwanda ostensibly tried hard to help and avert a new war in the Congo, hence it cannot be blamed for the mess when the conflict broke out later, is ludicrous. Don’t think we’re stupid and do not know the difference between diplomacy and foreign policy! What how would you call Japan’s intense diplomatic efforts to make peace with America in 1941 while actively plotting to attack Pearl Harbor? If you think that deception and double-game are not recurrent patterns of international relations when you’re dealing with an insincere partner, then your gullibility has reached new lows…
Bruno (to be continued)
You say “DR Congo is acting in indescribable chaos and risk failing as a functioning, governable state.”
Yes, the FARDC are chaotic, the DRC is such a mess: we know that (as well as who is the culprit…). But don’t pretend you Rwandans that you are not happy with that! Why was the CNDP part of the MP ruling coalition until recently and Ntaganda fiercely supported Kabila’s re-election by outsourcing Rwanda’s version of “democracy” in Masisi last November? Because you know that as “the fish stinks from the head down”, you Rwandans were happy you would get a free ride to achieve your villain designs with incompetence being served for another five years. (And let me repeat it here: it’s just a pity many of my Congolese brothers did not see that coming, but this is an intra-Congolese affair). BUT PLEASE DON’T COME BACK COMPLAINING THAT THE DRC IS SUCH A MESS!
Kabarebe claims the FARDC is mismanaged, so disorganized, ill-equipped it can’t kill a mouse. Hence, in his distorted logic, Rwanda had no need to support the M23. But that’s the same mismanaged, so disorganized, ill-equipped FARDC that inflicted defeat after defeat on the mutineers during the early stages of the fighting in April and May…until funny things started happening from Runyoni…(of course, helped by the stupid FARDC unilateral truce. We also know the culprit…). Here again Kabarebe’s hollow argument will only deceive narrow-minded spirits like you!
You take all your heavy artillery on Steve Hege. Fine. Then, tell me what about Mahmoud Kassem (2001-2002)? Do you know these fellows: Léon Pascal Seudie (2004), Abdallah Baali (2005), Ibra Deguene Ka (2006-2007)? Do you know Ramond Miranda Ramos (2008), Mouctar Kokouma Diallo (2008)? Of course you know Jason Stearns (2008). But what about Dinesh Mahtani (2009) and Philip Lancaster (2010)? What all these guys have in common? They all chaired the UN Group of Experts on the DRC at one stage. The information between brackets is the year in which they assumed chairmanship of the Group.
What’s the relevance, you’d ask. Well, since its inception the Group has issued over 20 reports, whether interim or final. AND ALL THESE REPORTS SYSTEMATICALLY IMPLICATE RWANDA in one way or another, whether it’s about illegal exploitation of DRC resources, supporting various militia, violating arms embargo and the UN sanctions regime, or else. You can challenge me if I’m wrong: NO GoE REPORT SINCE 2001 HAS FAILED TO IMPLICATE RWANDA (whether in solo or with other players)! Can you honestly make the whole world believe that all these experts were biased over the years? That the DRC or the so-called international community systematically corrupted the Group? Come on. It’s as if Rwandans are discovering the decade-long work of the GoE only this year! Let’s be honest and not reduce this tremendous work to the single person of Steve Hege, that’s preposterous.
(to be continued)
Bruno
Rwanda has a well-documented history of concealing its actions in the Kivus. Rwandan leaders have become serial and unrepentant ‘denial experts’. It took then Rwanda’s Vice President and Minister of Defence Gen. Paul Kagame eight months – and only after the ousting of Mobutu – to admit, at last, that the RPA were backing AFDL rebels in 1996-1997. It took Rwanda four months to admit, under the tough diplomatic pressure from Nelson Mandela, that they were behind the RCD rebellion in 1998. Rwanda consistently denied that they were backing the CNDP yet scrambled to arrest Nkunda. On what grounds did they do that, since officially Kigali had nothing to do with Nkunda? Was Nkunda arrested because he was an undocumented Congolese immigrant or because an arrest warrant issued by the DRC authorities? No, nobody can buy the stupidity to make us believe Rwanda had no link whatsoever with the CNDP. Likewise for the M23.
“Nanu esili te”. The Congolese have not yet had their final say, believe me. One day, the giant Congo will rise up. That day, Rwanda need not feel threatened at all, we’re not and will never be a menace to your existence. Your actual threat is your own FDLR Rwandan fellows as well as ghosts you’ve created yourselves.
Bruno
@Bruno Mabanza
“Nanu esili te”. The Congolese have not yet had their final say, believe me. One day, the giant Congo will rise up. That day, Rwanda need not feel threatened at all, we’re not and will never be a menace to your existence. Your actual threat is your own FDLR Rwandan fellows as well as ghosts you’ve created yourselves. "
No news here; Rwandans know this very well for decades. When Mobutu welcomed ex-FAR, renamed FDLR, in Kivu, that was his plan. When Kabila (father) armed FDLR and started the CPP's, letter renamed Mai Mai's, that was the plan.
As long as that threat is there, Kivu will have no peace. Simple.
Rich, I certainly won't be taking any moral lessons or advice from an individual who is a sympathiser of Genocide criminals!
Yes,congolese did take part in the genocide of tutsis, starting with 1964 Mulele campaign that exterminated Congolese Tutsis in former zaire,the same militia crossed into Burundi and slaughtered Burundian Tutsis, everytime they did this, they specifically targeted the tutsi community,including 2004 Gatumba refugee camp Congolese Tutsi genocide in Burundi where in a joint coalition attack,Rwandan Ex Far,Congolese Mai Mai Militia and Burundi Palipehutu slaughtered 160 unarmed Congolese Tutsis who had recently fled pogrom and genocide against their community,the Youngest victim at the refugee camp was 3months old! As for 1994, it is no secret that Mobutu's army helped Ex Far in the genocide of tutsis, this is why Rwanda Ex Far and interahamwe genocidaires were allowed to enter former zaire with all their weaponry,with the full protection of the UN mandated French Army, how shameful!
By the way, the latest propaganda and lies of Congolese have failed to produce their expected results. And Rwandans continue their journey toward progress.
Only one month after budget support cuts from some countries, Rwandans raised 12 Million Us$(7 Billion Rwf)to support development projects
http://www.newtimes.co.r/news/index.php?i=15105&a=57867
Today the UK has unblocked part of the frozen aid. More than the money itself, this shows that the Congolese arguments to try and put all their own failures to Rwanda(They like to call it - the tiny poor country ) has become untenable.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/04/britain-rwanda-congo-idUSL6E8K4E1220120904
http://rwiza.net/2012/08/29/monusco-congo-army-performance-appalling-exclusive/
The bloody dictatorship of PAUL KAGAME is coming to an ugly end . Blogging forward,Roberto,James,Mushikiwabo etc...can say whatever they want,but they have no power to stop the Sunami waves of change that are moving towards the mille collines .dit you see how shaky and squelettal KAGAME looked at ZENAWI's funeral ?he knows that his time up and his m23 terrorists are not going to save him .Comparing Rwanda to Israel is very insulting to the Jewish people and the state of Israel. Rwanda is a ruthless dictatorship run by former Rebels,war lords and war criminals.Rwanda is a Country where democracy ,the rule of laws,human wright and justice does not exist .the Rwandan military has been engaged in a massive recruitment of Child soldiers in Rwanda and Neighboring DRC and they have also been committing massive rapes ,mutilations,and all kinds of inhuman activities inside the Congo.unlike Israel where the government is democratically elected with the majority of It's people, Rwanda is a ruthless dictatorship where people get beheaded for criticising the former war lords who have been ruling that tiny impoverished nation for the last 18 years.98% of the Rwandan population live bellow the poverty line and the majority of the 85% are Hutus who have no rights ,no access to employment ,higher education ,Health care ....in a Tutis apartheid dictatorial regime of former war lord and war criminal PAUL KAGAME .Rwanda and Uganda have invaded neighboring Congo more than twice since 1996 in order to plunder that country's massive mineral wealth(diamond,Gold,Coltan,....) Those invasions have now resulted in the deaths of over 5 million Congoles peoples,and the displacement of millions more.the Rwandan backed M23 rebels are now engaging in recruitment of Child soldiers and are committing massive rapes,and various human right abuses in territories that they'r now occupying in the North KIVUS region of eastern Congo.comparing Rwanda to Israel is not just an insult to Israel but It's also an insult to the Jewish peoples.
@ Salama,by your statements, I can tell that you are full of rage, I don't know what world you live in!Rwanda is the most democratic country in East Africa,and the most transparent Nation since the genocidal regime was overthrown in July 1994!Like it or not, Israel and Rwanda have endured both genocide, and both Rwanda and Israel are constantly scrutinised in the same manner with false accusations by individuals and Nations clearly antisemite and anti tutsi!By the way, I am not sure if you know much about the history of Israel, before the Jewish state was born, Jews had to set up armed militias to liberate themselves from Arab terrorism, google Irgun,stern gang, you see, Rwanda and Israel are twins born out of the same tragegy!
1998 Irin report on the influence of Media in the African Great Lakes:
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Hornet/irin_22698.html
@Salama,
Rwanda is a democracy and you can't compare the 2006 and 2011 elections in your country to the ones held in Rwanda.
Rwanda, like any other country such as USA, France, the British empire, and so on, has fought its own wars. Congolese are always the first to bring the parallel with Israel so that you can cash in the sympathy of the anti-Israel within the UN and all over the world. Rwanda has its own experiences and realities and will stand on its own.
This things about 85% of Rwandans leaving poverty makes all your arguments look childish.
The world bank tells me a different story:
2005 2011
Poverty rate 56.7% 44.9%
Net Primary enrollment: 86.6% 91.7%
Safe drinking water: 70.3% 74.2%
1 million Rwandans lifted out of poverty in the last five years; remember Rwanda has only 11 million people.
Rwanda is rated 'B' with a positive outlook perspective by Fitch Rating and standards and poor
Rwanda is ranked number 1 in Africa doing business report.
for reference:
http://blogs.worldbank.org/africacan/one-million-more-out-of-poverty-in-rwanda
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/20/idUSWNA376020120820
@blogging forward,
I have seen many Kagame PR activists in this blog , but you are the more fanatic and your fanatism speak volume of the type of people Kagame and his Tutsi elites use to execute their plan of domination.
You are not at the level of understanding just invective. Mixing racism, with antisemetism re-writing history of tutsi massacre that you now, basselessly , trace back to ancient kingdom, calling entire nation "gennocidaire", like you did, for you all congolese, burundi, etc are genocidaire?!!
For you white people have the right to address Rwanda genocide when they share your view otherwise they have to shut up. And when black people, Congolese or members of the regions question your views, they are, and not only them but all their nations are "genocidaire" ?!!
In my previous post when I spoke of the ideology of domination that the Rwanda Genocide has became I didn't think I will get an example so quickly. You embodies everything of what Kagame and his fanatic are: you are totally into your trip, you don't want to be questioned , for evading serious concern your mix everything, use your fanatic blog as true new source (belief re inforcement loop) and when execuses run dry you go nuclear with weapons of mass destruction : we have been victim of genocide, we have all rights , we are the only one who deserve to live all others have no rights at all.
A rwandese Agasoro has spoken and addressed issues that is killing your society : the denying of basic right to exist to hutu. But you did not address that point because for you it is not even a question. Hutu do not deserve the same rights as you do, they are genocidaires, even their baby are.
For those who did not understand the great lakes problem you are the best answer. It is people like you who have been killing for the last 16 years in industrial scales and who uses racism ideology of genocide, smearing campaign and revisted untrue history, to deny investigation on your actions. And your regime to ensure that everybody get access to only its side of the story has criminalized access to internet web site criticizing the government. This last law as the genocide law is vague enough (from which point do we stop to be critical and start criticizing ?) for your regime to quell any dissenting voice.
Please continue commenting with the same rage whithout addressing the issue of fairness in your society and the exportation of your hate and killings in DRC.
By fighting your "genocide" you have comitted a bigger one and lost any morale justification.
Time of reckoning is near. Your position is unttainable .
@blogging forward,
Regading your string of links that supposedly should attest of tutsi massacre. I went through them one by one. And I was caught that it only portray one side of the story. It is like we have a battle ground and decide to only focus on one battle and stop reportibg on the whole war.
Genocide might have happen but It did not happen like you describe it. Hutu have been killed and tutsis have been killed.
But, after long reflection , I realized that the point in all of this is what have you done of the Genocide? Why the story of the genocide is so important ? It is important because it has been used for ever cast 80% of the population has criminals whithout any political rights. Genocide has been used to explain, excuse deaths of 6millions people, the actual entire population of Rwanda.
Genocide has not been used as a new deal for promoting peace and pacific coahbitation. Massacre made these last 16 years have planted the seeds for the next wars.
That is the legacy of Kagame and your kind: killings, rape , murders , hate.
All your stat on Rwanda are.simple figures,if you live in Rwanda, that means you are among the tutsi elite and in gove circle as this blog is among the list of those for which you can be prosecuted if you access. Then just look into your army, where are the hutu?.look in your gov where are the hutu ? Leave Kigali and go into country side where is the development you talk about. When you start at zero and jump to 5 it is a 500% increase what was the baseline ?
I know Rwanda , I traveled in Rwanda and continue to. I have not seen all this tremendous growth you are refering to. And the stupid test is this : 80-85% of popuLation is hutu and they are defranchised so this increase on wealth to which does it go. Already certain school are obliged to close because aid stopped.... If part of aid resumed its because of these kids who need foreign support to study and not because of your government. Why didn't you use your economic wealth to pay for this school education ? Rwanda is a poor country period.
Its like DRC having a 7% GDP increase when population does not feel any benefit.
@Gisa Roberto
i was in Rwanda during that so called election ,i remember journalists being beheaded for attempting to criticize dictator PAUL KAGAME,politicians assassinated in broad day light for attempting to form an opposition,young man and woman machetted to death for just expressing their support for jailed freedom activist VITOIRE INGABIRE. i guess that's democracy Rwandan style.
yes Kagame has lifted his 10% Tutsi people out of poverty and at the same time he has driven the hutus who makes up more than 85% of the Rwandan population bellow the poverty line.thats why his dictatorship is called the NEW APARTHEID.
those same rating agencies also gave SADAM HUSSEIN,MOBUTU,GHADAFFI,MARCOS and many more ruthless dictators the same ratings.my friend i know Rwanda from A to Z, Rwanda is a very impoverished nation where 98% of its population is unemployed and most reside in mud hats without Running water or electricity. according to you ADOLF HITLER shall be praised for lifting his German NAZIS out of poverty wile creating hell all around Europe. my friend PAUL KAGAME is a war criminal who's 18 years reign of terror has brought not peace and prosperity but death and destruction to the Great lakes.like CHARLES TAYLOR, PAUL KAGAME and JAMES KABARERE shall also be brought to justice and answer for the WAR CRIMES and CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY that they have committed in the CONGO.this is long over due and the world is not going to just stand aside and let KAGAME continue in his destructive path under the guise of M23.
hundreds of thousands of TUTSIS and moderate HUTUS where killed during the 1994 inter-ethnic Rwandan Massacre by the so called NTERAHAMWE militias, some elements of the former Rwandan military (FAR)and also Ugandan formed rebels (RPF). most leaders of the so called Genocidairers (HUTU militias) have already been bought to justice for those despicable crimes.
since 1996 Rwanda has invaded Congo more that twice and has also supported various Rebel groups like RCD GOMA,RCD KML,CNDP and now M23. RWANDAN involvement in CONGO has now caused the death of more than 5 million people but no one has yet been brought to justice for those crimes.it's also time for the perpetrators of the CONGO's holocaust to face justice for their crimes.
@Toko wa@Congo man,
You seem to be in total rage against Rwanda. No more arguments. Just frustrations and old tiresome rhetoric against Tutsis,Rwanda and president Kagame.
As a Rwandan, it is my duty to counter your lies with facts and data:
1. Education in Rwanda is free and universal from nursery up to finishing secondary-high school(12 years basic education); children at school are offered lunch free of charge. School enrollment is at 91.7%. Stating that: ..certain school are obliged to close because aid stopped.." shows you have no idea of the Rwanda you are talking about. The schools were build with no single dollar from outside.Even the government of Rwanda contributed less than 40%. We did the work ourselves with our own hands and we contributed money directly from own pockets.
2. Data from the world bank shows that 74.5% of Rwandans have access to clean and safe drinking water.
3. Poverty rate in Rwanda is at 44.9%
Yes, Rwanda is still a developing country and we know we still have a long way to go. We do not want to compare ourselves with any one else. We are doing our part building a better future for the next generations.
The same should be expected from you Congolese. But unfortunately, you are just more focused on harming Rwanda than building your own future.
@ Toko, I can tell that you have been brainwashed by those Hutu ideologists (Ex Far,interahamwe) who still believe that there is a difference between Hutus and Tutsis, it is your right to trust blindly in what the Belgian colonialists implemented:divide and rule the citizens of Rwanda.
In today's DRC issues, you can choose to follow the ideology imposed by Belgian to Greggoire Kayibanda (the Man who curiously believed Hutus,Tutsis,Twas are of different race),Tschombwe who was used to finalise Belgium's plans of partitioning Katanga in favor of Belgium interests, or indeed Mobutu who was bribed to kill his own fellow comrade Patrice Lumumba.
What I see with some congolese is that you fit in very well with the individuals mentioned above, you allow others from outside Africa to influence what you think about your own neighbours!
You asked to know where are the Hutus in Rwanda's government, I support Rwanda's vision of teaching their children that they are Rwandans, I don't need to answer your non sense question which most People know the answers, Rwanda is free from prejudice, they are rebuilding their Nation in peace,reconciliation (this means that the victims have agreed to pardon those who persecuted them from 1959,and made them refugees, or discriminated), Rwandans are a model, and it is God keeping them safe from some neighbours who constantly seek to finish what Greggoire Kayibanda started back in 1959!!!
By the way,I am not Rwandan, I am a Friend of Rwanda and Rwandans!
Blogging forward et al. -
Do you mind if I remind you that there were thousands of rwandan tutsis living in DRC prior to 1994.
Whilst in the DRC they had education, security, shelter, great jobs and many other opportunities all with Congolese tax payers' money. The vast majority of them had better lives than Congolese themselves. I grew up with many of them and at no time they've ever been considered as even refugees.
You no what NO GENOCIDE was committed on them. Most of them went back to their native rwanda, on their own initiative, when kagame took power. So, as you can see, Congolese don't do genocide. I will agree with you if you say corruption is a problem in the Congolese society but not genocide.
Rich
@ Rich,I know that very well, Rwandan Tutsis fleeing the first Tutsi genocide in 1959 did go to former Zaire,Burundi,Tanzania,Uganda and Kenya.I am also aware that Patrice Lumumba together with Julius Nyerere, defended Rwandan King Kigeli when he was being incarcerated by Belgians in Rwanda, as a matter of fact, Nyerere threatened Belgians that if he was not released,Western interests would be threatened in Tanzania, what I like about this spirit of patriotism is that Panafrican Leaders such as Patrice Lumumba, Prince Louis Rwagasore of Burundi,Julius Nyerere all understood they had to stand together as an African People, unlike what we see on the continent at the moment when Brothers from the same continent follow blindly legacies of colonialism!
The Young Burkina Faso President Thomas Sankara had tried to warn us way a long time ago, he warned African Leaders not to war at one another, I invite you to listen to his last speech in Addis Abeba, he was truly prophetic:
http://youtu.be/DfzoToJEnu8
I am not against Congolese, I am not against Hutus, but I am against those who impose an ideology that divide Africans, I am against those who engineer genocide on our continent, I am pro panafricanism!
We can learn a lot from the courage and vision of Thomas Sankara:
http://youtu.be/HvBC7tmgFFM
@blogging backward
You are a clown, you mix everthing contradict yourself and make baseless statement, but my preferred one is :
"I don't need to answer your non sense question which most People know the answers, Rwanda is free from prejudice, they are rebuilding their Nation in peace,reconciliation (this means that the victims have agreed to pardon those who persecuted them from 1959,and made them refugees, or discriminated), Rwandans are a model,"
It is the first time that I got this answer regarding the hutu-tutsi divide in Rwanda: there is none because now (start violin) hutu and tutsis live in peace and harmony, all the hutu killers have asked for forgivness and the beloving tutsis forgave. In Rwanda peace is every where. Even when we travel there we should not listen what people Tel us or believe what we see. Mud hat are in fact 3 stars hotels, and the there is love and bliss in everyone heart. And why all of this ? Because Kagame and his croonies said so.....
If you are fanatic enough to believe your own lies and repeat them over and over thinking that it will make them truth, you are even worse than I thought.
I will let each reader to judge your arguments.
For me your are the perfect Kagame and tutsi elite executor. Taking as only truth the bizare Kagame narative about pan Africanisme, distorting facts and history . Blaming the whole world and deads ( the famous french and Belgian jesuites) while not taking your share of the blamr and accepting the fact that you are in power and that it is you who is killing and raping for the last 16 years!!!!
Within millions deaths in the counter.
I think that I can speak for a great part of the descent human being community: we are tired of your sensless murderous ideology.
Your Rwandese friend as said that your society is brutal and full of hate . Address that first instead of rewritting history from your security service office in Kigali...Let Rwandese access this blog and speak for themslves , if you dare, so that we can hear them. Oups sorry there is that law that prevent them to access content criticizing Kagame version of history.
The only thing I like when you speak is that, you just show to the world how crazy and pathetics you and your murderous friends are.
Without spilling oil in this debate, I would want to say this.
It is not in ignoring our problem that we solve them. What is for sure is that this road is not the right one. Let's just see how bad cohabitation is between COngolese, Rwandese, Hutu and Tutsi. Let's see the number of deaths, displaced, hartred, pain.
It seems like all the region is in a serious madness. It is worse than an horror movie, it is real.
That has to stop and denying problem or whole tribe right to exist won't solve the issue.
Saying that there is no more hutu or tutsi does not make this situation to materialize. You need more than just words.
Let's look an alternative path to the one we are in. It is going to blow in our face. Now it is Congo is affected, and im fearing that soon Rwanda will start boiling as well.
Let's look at the situation for what it is and if we cannot agree on everything, let's agree on the minimum: We are all human being and we all deserve life and dignity. Also nobody should pay for the sins of her/his forefather.
Thomas Sankara speech in Harlem:
http://youtu.be/ulD0_JfdEUc
@Toko Wa,
So you want us to agree that in Rwanda" Mud hat are in fact 3 stars hotels,.. "
That is not just true.
Rwanda doesn't do what it does so that someone else come and appreciate. We do what we think is best for our interests.
There are standards accepted globally, and we use those to measure our progress and failures.
As I said before, we know as Rwandans, there is a long way to go. If you are that expert in human development to be able to measure what is going wrong in a country, it will be very patriotic of you to use your skills and help DRC your country.
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